My prediction is that (if heard by then) that Pell will be out by ANZAC day!
Two High Court judges have considered Pell’s application just on the written submissions alone. They considered factors such as whether their hearing of an appeal was a matter of public importance, whether there is a matter of law to clarify or if it’s just ‘in the interests of the administration of justice’ and they decided not to decide! They chose instead to drag the full bench in on this very first decision, and as I have said I think this has been a very wise approach.
The 2 J’s have put the matter of even if the High Court ought to hear this appeal before the full bench. This approach brings the matter on far sooner (it keeps this case out of the queue that is already established without privileging the Cardinal). If they had accepted the appeal and set it down for a hearing of the full bench it would have joined the queue and that would add perhaps a year of extra jail time to be served by this obviously innocent man.
‘On 17 September, Pell sought special leave to appeal to the High Court of Australia, the final court of appeal in Australia.[236][9][237] On 13 November, two justices of the High Court referred the decision on leave to appeal to a full-court “for argument as on an appeal”.[23][24]
On 19 November 2019, most of the High Court appeal timeline was set. Pell’s lawyers were ordered to submit by 8 January 2020 reasons why Pell’s conviction should be overturned. Prosecutors will then have until 5 February to submit reasons why the conviction should be upheld. Pell will then be ordered to respond by 26 February. The hearing is likely to take place around a month after these procedures’ [238]
So the hearing is probably going to occur in April.
From reading around the legal journalists etc., I am now confident that enough people have ‘got it’. Enough of the evidence came out with Mark WeinbergJ dissent and also in the majority’s faulty reasons to conclude that the ABC driven case has finally fallen in a heap.
Everyone involved in the procession had to be somewhere at the time it ended and that made the offending impossible not just highly improbable. This case is worse than the Chamberlain case because it is demonstrably senseless for anyone who can count to 6. I now say Pell will win 7 nil and be let out immediately, but having lost 6-0 myself in my HC case….
There was simply no opportunity for the rapes to have occurred; it was therefore not open to the jury to reach a guilty verdict. This case has had a correct verdict already written by the dissenting J Mark Weinberg. The other 2 just can’t count and have disgraced themselves.
Frankly, if the trial judge Kidd J had been doing his job correctly he ought to have instructed the jury to acquit Pell. Kidd J simply dropped the ball! These 2 High Court judges read MWj and fully understand that there was no opportunity to commit the crimes and the police ought to have known this as well! If you can count you can work this case out. The police were criminally negligent in spending millions of dollars and causing such hardship to an obviously innocent individual that they were out to get and so were the judges with the possible exception of the magistrate!
The ABC can count as well. The management of the ABC has let the vilest assault on Pell get going and keep going despite the accusations not adding up! Milligan, Marr and Minchin etc are all partially responsible for what has unfolded. ABC management and staff ought to be held to account as well but don’t hold your breath.
The current Victorian Premier Andrews ought to be shamed for his stand against Abbott as well, but don’t look in that direction either!
I can feel the wagons circling already. Stuff Xmas I can’t wait for ANZAC day!
….
BTW as Morrison sensibly sticks to his guns there is no sign of that clearly hysterical panic on the climate alarmist front stopping in Australia and people will recall that Pell is a bad man on this pseudo-left front as well!
Anyway, with drought and fires and the ABC in full hysterical flight, all that can save us is saint Greta, or better still a local 15year old just to go one better! Fortunately with her method of travel Greta won’t be traveling down-under anytime soon, so we need a local child leader.
While we wait for our local saint this list of predictions is a good reference for sinners. https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2018-10-11-manhattan-contrarian-quiz-climate-tipping-points-edition
The following was a comment I posted elsewhere (I have made slight corrections here)
‘1st an important correction. The 2 J’s of the HC have not accepted the appeal but very cleverly have put that question before the full bench (and that can be 7 or Just 5 j’s). The important point is that this brings the matter on in the fastest manner possible.
Before explaining why I will just state baldly that it is self-evident at this point that Pell’s conviction is unsafe. Further than that the now supposedly proven offending was literally impossible to have taken place. The complainant is either a mentally troubled person or a liar, I think the evidence is for the former. Now to the why.
1/The location was not empty for the required offending.
2/The complainant could not get there from his ‘starting point’ (the back gate very near where the choir separate from the others in the procession altar servers & priests. Not possible even if he was running (back around and into and then in the cathedral) with his alleged other ‘victim’ still wearing his dress like choir uniform. The altar servers can not vanish at any point and always took about 6 minutes for the procession after they got back they bowed to the cross and then had duties that kept the sacristy a literal hive of ‘activity.’ https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2019/10/pells-new-appeal-and-this-hiatus-this-gp/
3/The only Sundays that were available for the allegation were the 15th and 22nd, and the 15th had a very good 3rd witness -McGlone- that placed Pell out front of the Cathedral for the period, as Pell and Portelli had said was his practice and what is good politics!
13yr olds would remember what happened just before Xmas when they were in the 1st year of their 2 year stint. Xmas is a very big event for Christians, and just to be clear I’m an atheist even something of an anti-theist as well as being a revolutionary leftist so I have little in common with Pell and his whole world view.
4/ Before I was able to understand the impossible timeline I had concluded that this case was NOT making any sense and had read up on some of Milligan’s articles about ‘the Kid and the Choirboy’ and I had listened to Marr’s podcast ‘The Reckoning’. In the latter, we were told by the young woman who attended ALL court days that the ‘victim’ had told his brother and sister about the event on his grandmother’s 80th birthday while drunk in the back of the car being driven home. Now here is where we are forced to speculate because the evidence is not transparently presented. It is evident to me that this incident was both after the other man’s death and must have been conveyed to both ‘the Kids’ mother and then to the police. SANO police then approached the grieving mother and her ex and tried their level best to get more evidence but got nothing. The ‘kid’ was only later convinced to give a formal statement to the police. It seems that the mother who had been concerned about the mental state of her son now had a reason for all the trouble and was out to get Pell as was SANO.
Now the upshot of all this is that the HC will hear this and they will find in Pell’s favor and he will be out by the end of May at the latest I would think. But that ought not to be where this case ends. The police ought to be investigated and face the consequences of putting a case together that they ought to have known did not have an opportunity to have happened. Then Milligan and the ABC ought to be exposed for what they have been up to also Marr and his puppet (who is herself currently writing a book about this).
There are still people that think Lindy killed her baby and we must remember that even the HC got her case wrong! But there is no way that people can’t count the tick tick time that shatters this complaint. It is the work of a troubled mind that did not even know what he was talking about and had to change his story as they are to this very day with the locked door being now changed to the blocked door in the latest reprint of Milligan’s book. But that patch up just makes it worse because then the offending had to take place in the corner and Pell could not have even discovered the red wine swigging boys (proven to be white wine) until he got right into the hive of activity area called the after mass sacristy.
The police have caused millions of dollars of public funds to be wasted and Pell has been persecuted for something that never happened.
Even when this rotten case is overturned none of us will be safe until what led to this is dealt with. But that is for another time…’
The timeline for the HC appeal is now set but the secret evidence is now thanks to the Supreme Court Appeal sufficiently out in the open and it is laughable!
Here is the big conclusion from Keith Windshuttle
The timeline published here shows that the hypothesis of the Appeal Court majority, that there was a hiatus period during which Potter waited for private prayers to end in the cathedral, during which time the priests’ sacristy was occupied solely by Pell and the two choirboys, is wrong.
The Ferguson–Maxwell scenario made two mistakes. It neglected to factor into its own assumptions the six minutes needed for the procession, including the altar servers, to move from inside the cathedral to its outside rear gate, and then into the priests’ sacristy; and it put aside what the altar servers told them they did once the procession was over.
The timeline shows that the altar servers, especially those who headed the procession, would have got to the priests’ sacristy before the two boys. They took a more direct route to that room than the choirboy, who said he and his friend backtracked externally from the toilet corridor to the south transept door before re-entering the cathedral and following the internal route to the priests’ sacristy, a route Ferguson and Maxwell accepted as true [par 203].
My informant about the cathedral says that, starting from the rear gate, it would take the altar servers sixteen seconds (twenty-two paces) to go along the toilet corridor to the priests’ sacristy. However, using the choirboys’ alternative route via the south transept doors, it would have taken them one minute sixteen seconds (115 paces) to go from the rear gate to the sacristy. The altar servers went there directly and, finding the door unlocked, as the two judges assure us it was, would have gone in exactly one minute before the boys arrived.
So there was no time available in that room after the Mass for the six minutes of sexual abuse to take place. As the defense rightly argued, the scenario described by Pell’s accuser is not only the subject of reasonable doubt, it is extremely improbable it ever happened.
Keith Windschuttle is Editor of Quadrant.
https://quadrant.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/timeline-1.png
https://quadrant.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/timeline-2.png
Now Keith ought to have added -just to kick the shit out of these 2 breathtakingly incompetent appeal court judges- that if the altar servers etc had found the sacristy locked then so would have any choir boys but also that they would be standing there waiting to finish work and would have then said to 2 wayward choir boys what the hell are you 2 doing here? The altar servers had work to do before they could devest and go home! What the hell do these incompetent judges think they were going to do with the stuff they were carrying that is stored in that sacristy? These judicial morons are not fit for the jobs that they are doing and they ought to resign or be removed!
I wonder if Premier Andrews can now see this looming 7-0 HC train wreck! The word Acquitted on all the front pages! At some stage, he will have to face up to the Catholics and they ought to kick the shit out of him for what he said about Abbott who was not trying to do anything other than visit a friend in jail (who he happened to also believe was innocent). What sort of rat is Andrews?
When I first worked this timeline impossibility out I said to Anita I must be wrong it can’t be that simple.
Then I saw Andrew Bolt going through the procession timing and then last I read Keith Windschuttle and his timeline of the MAJORITIES reasons set side by side. It is great work on KW’s part and AB as well. I had kept doubting myself about the opportunity impossibility till I realized that it IS that simple there could be no opportunity whatsoever. There ought not to be any cloud remaining over Pell over this rot. It never happened because others were always where the complainant says nobody was. He could not get there first and start swigging on the red wine that turns out to be proven from solid defense evidence to have been white!
But it is the procession timing that literally smashes this case! KW and AB and my good self are not wrong in placing all those taking part in the procession in their minute by minute positions. Nobody disappears with this approach. Fully accounted for there is an impossibility of opportunity involved in this case and so Kidd J ought to have spotted it and told the jury that they were compelled to acquit Pell but he dropped the ball.
How the appeal judges stuffed up so bad is hard to fathom but when I saw the appeal result being delivered and saw the body language of MW J as he held AF & CM JJ in complete contempt I knew that the reasons would be a good read. I was not disappointed either. These two fools were on a hiding to nothing. If engineers did this sort of thing they would be jailed for criminal negligence for nor being able to count.
I have seen such dreck from J’s before but not with a dissenting J smashing the dreck apart right up against it! It was a complete demolition. If you have not read the 300+ pages then perhaps you should do so. That is why I am so confident.
I think this case is far worse than the Chamberlain fiasco that really was ‘that simple’. A dingo has got my baby. That was all there was to it YET…
Before I knew much about this case I had worked out that 13yr old Choir boys don’t go back into the church after they get out of it on a Sunday! Boys don’t go past their adult singers and get away with disappearing for a frolic in their full girls’ dress style gowns and they simply wouldn’t want to. None of the witnesses had even heard of such an event as two such boys nicking off in this manner and after getting as far as the gate. I say boys would much rather get the dresses off and get on with the next part of their day. That next part was choir practice done minus dress. Midnight Mass at Xmas was all happening in 3 days! All this was forgotten about in this deluded so-called ‘memory’.
When I discovered that this complaint was so vague I concluded that the police ought to be on charges for not pinning it down themselves to when it was supposedly possible. That done as an honest attempt would have exposed the complaint as utterly false. Instead, this mad complaint from a mad and BAD complainant went forward with a 6-month spread of when it may have happened! It was the defense that forced the prosecution to accept that it could only have been on the 15th or the 22nd of December. (that produced the unreliable memory of the 2nd bullshit incident in a crowded corridor from not happening in the same year a month or so later as stated but next year at the next opportunity for Pell and that was late February!!
The defense had a rock-solid alibi for being on the front steps on the 15th because of the other priest’s mother being introduced to Pell and embarrassing the witness and this backs up Pell and Portelli so, in reality, this left only the 22nd ie 3 days before Xmas and with choir practice right after mass. But nobody missed the sopranos and so ‘remembering the ride home staring out the window’ is more rubbish. Nobody in the choir didn’t notice that the pair of them sang like proverbial larks as usual. So they must have so sung like larks or people would have remembered. The practice would have been a disaster if they didn’t! Yet they BOTH had to do so after being orally raped side by side. Bullshit! Utter rubbish! Disgraceful! ie just as Pell reacted at the police interview! Compelling witness??? Rot.
It does not matter how ‘compelling’ Hamlet is nor Olivier in delivering the lines they are fiction! Compelling is not a test against the opportunity that does not exist. No one can be in 2 places at once and no one can just be disappeared from what is a workplace until the work is done and they devest lock the door and leave. That is what the others were doing. Just going about their jobs in a crowded workspace. The ‘compelling witness’ did not have a clue what went on in the sacristy after mass and neither did the police who ought to have. They caused millions of dollars to be wasted on this tosh when all they had to do was turn up at the mass before Xmas and see how it all works to get the point clear that there would be no opportunity.
To be sure, as a bog Irishman would say, the defense dropped the ball. But that is because they had unquestionably established that this case was impossible. They knew they had won. But all the jury heard was BLA BLA BLA. Nobody was listening. They were going to bring justice for the compelling witness of truth! They were going to deal with Pell.
But the compelling witness is not only mad he is also bad as he protected his story with the patch-ups after it started to unravel. For example, locked has now become blocked in the 2019 edition of Milligan’s award-winning trash! Grieving mother and Milligan and Police know full well that it was locked as his first version!
This junk just goes on and on.
But anyone who now thinks this through is forced to place everyone involved at someplace when the assault was going on and it can’t be rationally done.
The liar could not even get there 1st (we know he is a liar because of the blocked rather than locked bullshit) ‘they’ just could not get there before the others even if they ran and who would not notice two choir boys running in a Cathedral? So the wine swigging was a lie or madness.
As for Pell nicking off from the procession rather than doing politics at the front door; this is utter nonsense. Portelli would know and would have gone with him! To believe this ‘compelling witness’ you have to not understand what was happening with Portelli who would have been stuck like a shag on a rock somewhere if he was not with Pell. Where was he if not with Pell as he was required to be?
In the end, you have to conclude that the Catholics are all just covering up for each other and the whole joke then becomes an anti-catholic witch hunt. Some people think there are witches and some think they are themselves witches but it is very simple. They do not exist and neither do the uninterrupted minutes required for this offending to have happened.
The police ought never to have brought this case to trial and the next job after the HC establishes that Pell has to go free is to hold these bastards to account for their actions as they are so fond of doing to us.
Steve, you say ‘Pell should go free because there is no evidence against him’, on the contrary, there is a so-called compelling witness. and according to the 2 J’s in the majority, it was open for the Jury to find a guilty verdict from this compelling witness of truth!
The whole point of Windshuttle’s piece is to demonstrate from the 2 J’s own reasoning that THEY could not find an opportunity. That is the beauty of what he did! He ramed it right back in their own faces. There was no hiatus, no gap of time. A fact (from their own reasons), that they both missed! KW exposed THEIR reasons not the court case!
MW J did the same in a different manner but KW was more dramatic and succinct. His side by side approach is devastating in its clarity.
My conclusion is that neither of these 2 will ever be elevated to the HC. But they ought to resign! I am not shocked that such morons are in their respective positions and I am very glad that KW is in his!
As for your anti-Catholic rant; I think that while all churches are a form of delusion and for a great many that participate in them a way to fleece the flock, a racket if you like, I don’t think that the statistics show that the Catholic racketeers are anything other than a bit better on this issue of pedophilia than other institutions generally, but you wouldn’t know this from the MSM reporting bias.
It has been all around us and the catholic church is just the biggest so it appears the worst but when apportioned in accordance with its sheer size it comes out as having a lesser record of offenders! I can’t recall where I picked that up from but I’m quite sure you will find this is true.
And my kids have been in Scouts that have had a pretty bad record as do surf lifesaving, Uniting Church, Salvation Army etc This is not a Catholic problem at all. They are just the biggest of the Churches by a country mile!
Also as far as child abuse goes the MSM, schools, greens etc with their now incessant alarmist hysteria are engaged in genuine child abuse and on an industrial scale!
Yes lots of institutions have problems because they supervise children and pedophiles are attracted to work with children that is a given. Why the catholic church should be closed down is that it organised protection for these pedophiles. If you and me started a business and we employed 100 people and 5 turned out to be abusing the customers and our reaction was to do everything to protect our firms good name and nothing to protect our customers the government would have no hesitation in removing our business licence and placing us in prison.
Your defense of the Catholic church as it is most spotlighted because it is the biggest is a very sorry excuse for an explanation. The catholic church is spotlighted because it is worst practice exemplar from Pope Benedict blaming moral relativism to the current practice of priests refusing to break the confessional seal. So here we are today the Catholics are blaming the change in moral standards emanating from secular society and are refusing point blank to report known pedophiles to the police. This is current practice and it falls well below the standard acceptable for an organisation to be entrusted with the care of children.
Really child abuse is now the fault of the MSM and schools and the Greens.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-24/paedophile-jesuit-brother-moved-interstate-inquest-finds-/11825610
more media oppression of the poor catholic church
These are events of 50 years ago and it has been 25 years since Pell instituted procedures to put a stop to such conduct when he was in a position to do so. So yes this oh so vital report – in the context of no investigative report about the Pell frame-up, and the lies that have got him jailed for at least 14 months plus all that he has been ridiculously put through is ‘more media oppression’! The ABC in particular, are shameless!
This guff is still getting dragged up because there is nothing happening now because every organization has turned itself inside out trying to prevent pedophile conduct. Every single organization in Australia has for many years made this a big issue. Scouts and Guides and St John’s Surf lifesaving and ALL the churches.
Many things are now unworkable as a result. There is such a thing as overdoing the cure. It’s like bike helmet laws; they do more harm than they help and nanny-state interference ought to be wound back.
The Catholics are not last in reform nor are they worst in offending they are simply the biggest religion by a country mile.
The big issue right now is elsewhere and is definitely not pedophilia. The climate hysterics are a result of societal mania. The german mania in the 30ties and the Beatlemania of the 60ies are just 2 spectacular examples on the big scale while Chamberlain and Pell are small scales of the same issue, and check this list out… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria
The police and the courts are quite obviously an issue that must be addressed. The churches, on the other hand, have been in decline all that 50years! Now while it’s true that where the broom does not reach the dust will not vanish of its own accord nevertheless church rackets are in a death spiral trend line and are not any kind of priority compared to the ABC education dept monsters.
Think of what those day care workers were put through!
Patrick I think that you just dont get it. If the leader of the boy scouts said that it is the devil tempting scout leaders or that its out side secular ideas that are affecting scout leaders or if scout leaders had a special ritual where they could share that they are pedophiles but this special ritual prohibited them from informing on each other you wouldn’t let your kids be involved.
forgive me if Im wrong but I dont think that the scouts ran the Ellis Defense really an organisation that is sitting on Trillions cant cough up compensation for abuse victims “look no legal entity to sue”
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-01/catholic-church-ellis-defence-scrapped-from-new-years-day/10675890
Just to be clear super super clear Im not claiming that the Catholic Church has any more pedophiles in it than any other organisation that supervises children. What I am claiming is that the hierarchy of the church has actively assisted in covering up crimes and has thus qualified for the status of criminal organisation and should be treated like any other declared criminal organisation.
If it turns out that Scouts Australia have also engaged in criminal activity as an organisation rather than just been the victim of rouge elements then they too should be declared.
Well back to the issue at hand as you say sometimes things just don’t smell right and this article by Windschuttle has that odor to it. Firstly Windshuttle is fiercely ideological and all his arguments are ideologically driven. He’s always exposing the left and always from a right perspective but that doesnt preclude him from being correct on occasions it just means that we know we are dealing with a person who will invariably look into some social issue and without fail to declare the conservative view as triumphant.
Now Windschuttle has mapped out an event on a day that he doesnt know with such accuracy that it leaves no doubt about Pell’s lack of guilt but Pell had an extremely expensive defense team were they unable to put this to the jury to the extent that one juror might entertain doubt? The judge summed up the case , was his sumation to the jury so lacking in clarity that he did not point out to the jury that the defense had pretty well raised enough doubt. Did the judge not explain that the defense had only to raise their argument to the level that one of the 12 consider that the case wasnt made beyond reasonable doubt. But patrick tells me that the jury only heard “Bla Bla Bla”
OK so Windshcuttle is a genius the defense team was hopeless the judge was incompetent and the jury only heard “Bla Bla Bla”
But then it goes to a review panel who 2/1 get it wrong again.
I think that Pell should have got off because I think that our system is wrong if its one persons word against another persons word then I think that we should have the Scottish system where the accusation is judged unproven not guilty or innocent but not proven.
As to Windschuttle I think that the courts will deem his musings to be irrelevant.
Windshuttle will not be put to the court!
The KW reasoning is irrefutable. The court must account for where people are as his expensive defense must have therefore Kidd J erred in not instructing the Jury to Acquit.
I can’t explain the Appeal Court imbeciles who could not even work the problems through. Clearly they are not talking in a sensible manner to each other. Clearly Weinberg was not as crystal clear as Keith Windschuttle was in his 2 page 4 column summary of the majority’s assertions of where people HAD to be at the relevant times. Clearly, if this timeline had been shown to the 2 inumerate judges the ‘Doh’ moment would have dawned on them and Pell would have been acquitted. I’m not assuming a conspiracy but rather a pair of bunglers!
The loathsome criminal conduct of pedophilia is obviously not dealt with effectively by further crimes against any innocent people or any exaggeration whatsoever. What we need is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and so no witness can in this case be disregarded.
Innocent people are not in any legal process, comparable to military collateral damage! To be clear; in no way at all is that the case! And that remains the case if someone was in a position of some authority or even ‘in charge’ of an organization that did not, seen in retrospect, deal with the offenders in their midst in the currently correct manner. If this were not the case then there would be no social context to dominant thinking such as the white Australia policies and so forth. How former periods dealt with issues is more complex than just saying they were all protecting pedophile priests, teachers, ABC reporters, members of parliament, scout leaders, st John leaders, swimming coaches, Surf Lifesaving leaders etc.
Children are much better protected now but there is also a cost and a danger of overdoing the fear and also not recognizing the mental illness when it pops up from the opposite side. In addition, the MSM have an interest in sensationalization and exaggeration that we ought to be alert to! The ABC because it has independent government funding has a special duty not to misuse its enormous power. They have not been fair and reasonable at all!
There is no justification for hijacking and or derailing the exposure of the grossly negligent conduct, to the point of criminal negligence, that is being inflicted on Pell. It is now almost a self evidently legal ‘crime’ where just the slightest level of thought is required to see the impossibility of any opportunity for the alleged – now ‘proven’ – offending.
We as a society ought not tolerate a police force conducting themselves in this manner. The Gobbo scandal is IMV a lesser scandal and IT is totally unacceptable behavior from the same police force! An inquiry is required and it will not happen if the Victorian Premier has his way. Derailing this exposure will lead to that result. People will say ‘he was just lucky to get off’ or ‘he only got off because he was rich and powerful’.
His character and community standing has been shattered when nothing of this case is worth anything more than a little conscientious and discreet police investigation to reveal that a false accusation was the reality.
There have been multi-millions of dollars spent as a result of this case when all that was required was a couple of police attending for a few Sunday masses to see if it even could have happened! It couldn’t.
A police expenditure of say $1,000 and no damage to Pell and his church has blown out to 10’s of millions spent and these wild accusations against now all Catholics for their practices and beliefs that is still your focus! When it ought to be on the police the judicial system and the ABC.
Catholics are now once again being treated as if they are members of a disloyal and criminal club. The injustice being done to Pell is effectively being committed against all the participants in the procession.
Shrugging one’s shoulders to the point of effectively saying, as is openly done by the less sophisticated, that Pell and the Catholics had it coming for other conduct anyway, is exactly what the politically correct movement is a complete disaster about. If you want to strengthen the Catholic church then force them to circle the wagons and fight.
I personally would like to see the church attendances and diminishing religious adherence and general rot, that I have been witness to all my life, continue. The trajectory is clear to me.
But I will say that when I was being set upon by the ALP and other political opponents who made use of the police and courts it was only one religious minister that read my case and understood what was happening! He even gave me a donation to help me buy some petrol! My anti-theism is tempered with my own experience of my fellow atheists.
The use of the crime of pedophilia as a terrorist weapon against anyone who is accused has led to terrible injustice and the MSM has had a shocking role in what has happened!
The ABC is demonstrably a publicly funded inbred FAKE NEWS generator of mass hysteria. No progressive can tolerate what they are as an organization currently and constantly and systematically up to.
Pell at least stands up to them.
The refusal to contextualize and deal with historical swings in the way people think is a perfect foundation for the hysteria to build on and it has. There are crimes all around us and there are fewer crimes now but more worry and it ends with the idiocy of the childminding hysterics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria and all those innocent people having their lives actually ruined.
As to the ‘sacrament of confession’; I say if you want to strengthen the churches then you will start to jail priests who will not break their vows and they won’t.
The Royal Commission several times in its report categorised the leadership of the Catholic Church on this issue as catastrophic and recommended that the church bring itself in line with our societies standard of child protection which is mandatory reporting whereby any professional person who gains information about child abuse is bound by law to report even their suspicions to the proper authorities but the Catholic Church has declared that it will not abide by the law and will continue to keep child abuse secret if it is disclosed during the sacrament of confession. I have no problem jailing people who willfully breach the law. Thats what jails are for.
But there is no need to jail anyone just say to the church fine you want to uphold your sacraments fine but it will cost you your tax exempt status, trust me that sacrament would be history before the collection plate hit the floor.
Now there’s something you don’t see every day! I just saw the 84yr old pope slapping a woman on the back of her hand. I must say she really earned it as well. I guess he shocked a few people by swiftly reacting to her grabbing and obviously painful yanking his arm. Nevertheless, she really did get what she fully deserved. Foolishly he later apologized when it was her yanking this old man’s arm that caused him pain and is nothing less than an example of elder abuse. Totally unacceptable conduct brought on by an obvious religious fervor.
The other day I was reminded how much I love Latin. It’s great mumbo-jumbo that the institutional scammers use to impress the flock. It’s a much better tool than english (if the flock to be fleeced already speak english that is). How is this for a fine example of ‘I can beat you at Dominoes’… ‘Gaudete in Domino semper: iterum dico, gaudete. Modestia vestra nota sit omnibus hominibus: Dominus enim prope est. Nihil solliciti sitis: sed in omni oratione et obsecratione cum gratiarum actione petitiones vestræ innotescant apud Deum. Benedixisti Domine terram tuam: avertisti captivitatem Jacob. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudete_Sunday
This year the Sunday dates were the same as 1996 so 15 December was ‘Rejoice Sunday’ once again! I would hope that some wise Catholics would have filmed the High Mass processions from St Patrick’s for the 15 and 22! If a full documentary on Pells case is put to air then this is the money scenes. Let’s face it once you get your head around where people have to actually be that fact blows the whole case right up in your face. There are going to be a lot of very embarrassed people that the currently led astray public, once they are ‘woke’ to this scandal, will want answers from! A 7 zip HC acquittal will explode in the media and dominate the center of 2020.
But just for the moment, I want to try doubting myself on one issue! I think I’m the only person -I’ve not so far come across anyone else- that’s critical of Kidd J for him failing to what I have termed, ‘correctly instructing the Jury’ that convicted Pell.
I’ve said that Kidd J ‘dropped the ball’ because if he had been paying proper attention and by that, I mean doing what I, perhaps ignorantly, understand to be his job, it would have become clear to him that the accusations over the 1st incident (consisting of 4 of the 5 charges) had technically collapsed. This is proven by the actual process of that ‘unfinished’ mass. This is certain -a finding of fact- and because of this mechanical lack of an opportunity therefore impossible for the complainant to have ever been in an unoccupied sacristy after the mass at the time that he had claimed he was.
The sheep had just be shorn but the shearers were still busy putting away their tools. In effect, the actual mass or necessary extension to the mass if you prefer, was, for those who were still working in that extended and continuous activity, still in progress. Almost all of the minor ‘shearers’ had just moved to the sacristy. At the time of the alleged rapes, they had to be there because it was their place of work. So it was just as impossible for the complainant to have been raped at this spot as it was at any other place along the route of the same uninterrupted procession that was always in progress.
To be crystal clear the procession was not ‘over’ for those several members in it required to go through their de-vestment procedures, in order to finish work and go home, till the room that was then unlocked called the priest’s sacristy was again locked after it was finished with;
a) reached by that uninterrupted procession;
b) the cross in that room bowed to by the group and as a group;
c) the burdensome objects carried by them put away in that room;
d) the ‘clean up’ of the other objects outside the sacristy – in the Sanctuary – attended to in the ‘hive of activity’ period of back and forth that concluded back in that sacristy;
e) the several people involved then remove and put away their own vestments in that room; finally,
f) those unchallenged and unaccused men, said their after-work goodbys to each other and left the room, with the last man out being the man with the keys, Potter, locking the door behind them!
No evidence was ever adduced to demonstrate that this workplace procession was ever interrupted; if it had been then people would have remembered.
The procession did, as usual, split up into its 2 sections only meters from the sacristy. Because it was the Christmas period the 60 odd members of the choir had an after mass practice to attend. A fact of these 2 and only possible Sundays. This is not directly relevant because the choir always separated at the same spot and turned right to go to their room in another building when the leading altar servers turned left back into the Cathedral! As they had been at mass for the last hour or so, some of these men and boys may have made use of the toilets they were passing but that is also not relevant. The only relevant point is that the choir is now separated and both processions were still moving. The choir neither lead nor tailed the procession and has no further part in the mass and are themselves only meters from their own destination where they were about to practice. Those that did head and tail that procession ain’t over with their role till the 2 separate leading and following groups meet up in the priest’s sacristy absent all the choir.
This workspace is only finally vacated as set out above after Pell and Portelli have also arrived and removed their vestments and left to go off for lunch when Potter eventually and after checking that all is in order, turns the lock as the last man out. The choir was busy in another building all this time with their practice. Any mysteriously stray 13yr olds would be noticed by those who actually have to be in the priest’s sacristy or it’s also busy environs. There was nowhere else for ALL the others involved to be!
Remember the actual leaders of the procession had burdensome objects to carry to ceremonially use and then deposit -that is put away in their usual storage manner- in that very sacristy!
Pell was the leading actor in the high mass but no more important from a court’s POV than any other bit player. The mass does not end for the altar servers and others in the procession once they go out the front door of the Cathedral as it does for the flock! Even then, many sheep stop to get a pat on the head from the shepherd with Portelli his MC in attendance to prevent any spontaneous open-air assaults either of him on them or them on him (like today’s Pope slapping; it goes both ways!).
Anyway, it was thus NOT OPEN for the jury to find guilt and if it’s not open to the jury then IMV the judge must tell them that. And SO they must, therefore, acquit on these 4 charges.
This then leaves only the incredible 5th and separate charge from the same complainant for which the jury is entitled to draw their own inferences.
Now given I am not legally ‘qualified’ to come to this conclusion I would love to know just how I have this wrong!
I doubt myself sufficiently to assume that I could indeed be wrong over Kidd Js’ role, even though that opportunity question is conclusively settled and even though because of this a finding of guilt is not logically open to any jury.
Most of the articles on this case were produced before the evidence for the impossibility of the offending due to the lack of an opportunity for the offending was revealed to the public. But it’s all out in the open at this point.
On another issue. I have to correct one of my initial speculations.
What follows is now what I speculate to be how the police inquiry unfolded.
I have recently said;
‘4/ Before I was able to understand the impossible timeline I had concluded that this case was NOT making any sense and had read up on some of Milligan’s articles about ‘the Kid and the Choirboy’ and I had listened to Marr’s podcast ‘The Reckoning’. In the latter, we were told by Melissa Davey who attended ALL court days that the ‘victim’ had told his brother and sister about the event on his grandmother’s 80th birthday while drunk in the back of the car being driven home.
Now here is where we are forced to speculate because the evidence of what order events happened after this is not now and deliberately never has been transparently presented by anyone who ‘stands up for’ and ‘believes’ the ‘victim’.
However, it is evident to me that this drunk incident was after the funeral in 2014 and before the police called the Grieving mother out of the blue. It was this drunken fantasy told to sister and brother and then conveyed to mum that got the Kid’s mother involved with Broken Rites. The report was then off to the police and the investigation rolling. Mother could now grasp what had caused the mental problems with her son; he was a victim! He was suffering pretty standard PTSD type disorders. The other boy had also shown the classic problems and they eventually led to his early death! It was most probably Mum’s involvement with Broken Rites that got this story to the police in SANO.
The police THEN approached the grieving mother (Mary) and her ex and tried their level best to get more evidence but got nothing. But Mary and Ex now had a reason for their son going off the rails.
It seems that the mother who had been concerned about the mental state of her son the ‘Kidd’ now had a plausible reason for all his trouble and was out to get Pell as was SANO who was now informed that a traumatized victim who was as yet unwilling to come forward to the police but was at this time being guided through a recovery from his trauma (that had already effectively with the help of his mother Broken Rites and perhaps Dr Bernard Barrett and at some point the sympathetic support of ABC journalist Louise Milligan.
The ‘kid’ was now gently brought along by his growing support group and the story worked through and ‘clarified’ well before he got in front of the SANO police. ‘The ‘kid’ was only much later and after meeting with Milligan, convinced to give a formal statement to the police in I think June of 2015.
This then explains how and when the police got the info in the first place. It was only indirectly from the ‘Kidd’; so then when he went into the shop he also told the ‘locked the door’ story to the GM who had already been told of the gist of the events by the Police! The Kidd at this point probably and most likely still had not gone to the police and finally only did so because of MUM when he thought he was part of a larger group of complainants bringing Pell to justice. It was never intended by him that his ridiculous delusion that he had to keep modifying to fit reality was going to be the sole witness case that it ended up being. He was brought into this because of his drunken delusion after granny’s 80th birthday party while he was in a mentally fragile state some months after the funeral in 2014. I think Brother was driving and Sister was in the back with him when he blurted out a tearful tale of how it was Pell blah blah at this point constantly in the media over child abuse issues and the royal commission and being called scum by ABC
Like Milligan, even the ‘Kid’s’ MUM knows all this no longer makes sense but she must now keep the silence and let Pell rot in jail and perhaps justify it by the fact that anyway he did other things that he got away with. That is possibly the way that the ABC sorts and Marr and all the rest will also scramble for some moral high ground that does not exist for them. They are all in the gutter and will stay there for us to step over in May and June when it all comes out.
BTW I have been reading back through Gerard Henderson’s work on Pell issues as they developed over the last few years. They are good background material for a broader understanding that will be required to get the police role inquired into. It’s a monumental scandal of gross incompetence.
‘Certainly, Victoria Police knew much more about Searson’s crimes than the (then) auxiliary bishop. But the police did nothing. As Peter Hoysted documented in The Australian on Tuesday, Victoria Police also declined to prosecute pedophile priests in the Ballarat diocese four decades ago. In particular, Victoria Police declined to charge the pedophile monsignor John Day or Gerald Ridsdale.’
The ABC is overwhelmingly biased over Pell!
https://thesydneyinstitute.com.au/blog/anti-pell-media-pile-on-has-its-day-despite-weinberg-dissent/ https://thesydneyinstitute.com.au/blog/activist-reporting-to-fore-again-in-pell-appeal-comment/
https://thesydneyinstitute.com.au/blog/case-against-cardinal-george-pell-falls-down-for-lack-of-evidence/
https://thesydneyinstitute.com.au/blog/abc-journalists-treat-child-sexual-assault-as-a-catholic-problem/
https://thesydneyinstitute.com.au/blog/wilson-case-offers-a-study-in-contrasting-coverage/
https://thesydneyinstitute.com.au/blog/pells-ordeal-reinforces-the-case-for-judge-only-trials/
https://thesydneyinstitute.com.au/blog/its-not-uncommon-for-jury-verdicts-to-be-questioned/
https://thesydneyinstitute.com.au/blog/pell-case-attracts-inaccurate-views/
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/betweenthelines/one-month-after-the-unlosable-election-and-why-we-no-longer-ne/11804562
The argument for the High Court;
https://www.academia.edu/40967330/IN_THE_HIGH_COURT_OF_AUSTRALIA
This is where I have got to with my thinking.
J told Mary his ‘Pell locked the door’ story quite sometime after R’s funeral in April 2014, that funeral had set off his mental ‘fragility’ but it was before J went to the police [on 18 June 2015?] But the police had already contacted Mary and her Ex with information that could only have come from J – but it did not have to come directly from J and the evidence is that it did not!
The evidence is that J drunkenly told brother and sister being driven home after grandmother’s 80th birthday and that this was sometime after the funeral in 2014. Sister and Brother then tell Mom when they get home! The mother then gently deals with this ‘sensitive issue’ coming from her mentally fragile son and J at that point does NOT want to go to the police.
This evidently sane, well informed and progressively minded mother however now knows that Pell HAS to be held to account for this shocking crime of the rape of 2 13 yr old boys that has also self evidently had such terrible consequences for both ‘boys’. She deals with the issue by approaching Broken Rights who had all just been through the Royal Commission on child abuse and loathed Pell and had all recently watched the ABC junk on Pell. So given that Pell is involved this is sensational.
The activists at Broken Rights buy the whole if at this stage scant, deal lock and stock! They all just knew Pell was a pedo! No one at this stage doubted what was being reported by this perfectly sane mother who admits she simply doesn’t know all the details but knows that this terrible event happened and has been devastating and wants help in sorting this out and bringing the culprit to justice! AND the activists of Broken Rights give ‘survivor support’ to her in spades. Nobody thinks that what they were dealing with is a hallucination from a mentally troubled individual but know he is let’s just say fragile. This case from their POV will have to be handled ‘delicately’ and ‘professionally’ lest the victim be further damaged and/or the pedophile escape justice yet again!
That for me is the operating thinking that explains the way this unfolds.
Nothing was going to stop the activists from bringing Pell to justice. Nothing was then going to prevent the gossip spreading and the sympathetic anti-Pell activists of the ABC picking up on the story already understood to be huge in its scope.
There was soon to be a united front of police, activists and ABC type journalists.
The only people that stood appropriately aloof from what had become an unhinged hysterical rabble out to get Pell were those in the DPP that 3 times sent the file back with a refusal to bring any of it before a court!
The NON-sceptical people had not even met J yet and don’t even know the 1st full story he came up with. I say that nobody at this point would have believed they were dealing with an after Sunday Mass rape in the busy sacristy a week or so before Christmas 1996! They all thought they were dealing with events after Choir! If they had been told what we know now is the final story then someone might have started to wonder if what they were dealing with was true. But at this point, they just wanted to gently bring the victim along so that he was not further damaged etc. But they did contact SANO and the police also got to work; also with only a little bit of the details!
SANO now ‘knew’ that R had been raped and knew that he was tragically, now dead. The police wondered what his parents could help with and they spent many hours with them sharing what little they knew and together over a full day or so digging into the troubled past of R to try and make sense of anything at all. They actually got nothing at all! ZERO. But they did take statements from both grieving parents and they just knew they were getting closer to getting Pell who they ‘knew’ from their growing file and the ABC show was a pedo; so they didn’t want to scare off the reluctant victim J. They let him be brought to them in the activists own good time.
J is slowly brought on by the now guided mother and so he eventually meets with Broken Rites to help him sort out his problems. Pure speculation on my part but most probably he discusses his traumatic raping that he had apparently shoved to the back of his mind and tried to block out with perhaps Dr. Bernard Barret or another professional who may have helped him deal with the terrible PTSD issues from the events of 20 years ago.
This presumably, is where the Solemn Mass becomes a form of ‘recovered memory’ because Pell was dressed in his full regalia during the attack! But it was still very vague as to when it happened and actually went to the DPP and was rejected for prosecution 3 times! The police had to take the file before the courts themselves and all were eventually rejected except this crud case that will I predict be settled in the High Court with a 7-0 Acquittal of Pell. The DPP will be fully vindicated and the Vic police will have caused this total fiasco from start to finish. They had a duty to investigate not to go on a ridiculous spree of what became a witch hunt. They could have worked out that there was zero opportunity for this crime if they had sat a man in the Priests sacristy on a few of these big mass days. The Christmas period in particular. Pell indicated to them the correct method of dealing with such rubbish in his Rome interview. But the 3 of them ought never to have taken such nonsense to Rome in the first place. They never ‘got it’! They forgot the very basic point that ‘no opportunity = no criminal’ no matter what people think of him or his past.
This case went to court in the end with a six month period as a range of when it may have happened! But at any rate, the 2nd incident was also up and running and both had definitely happened before Christmass in1996! That is bad police work. The defense had to do their work for them and nail it down to 15th or 22nd December and therefore 1997 for attack 2.
J is eventually cross-examined by Richter, adapting the story in places and later Justice Kidd refers to the events, mentioning the tears of the boys who had to go back to Choir practice not being missed tear-stained and still robed and sing like larks if you don’t mind. As I have been reminded ‘In his verdict Judge Kidd refers to the events, mentioning the tears of the boys.’ The complainant J gave evidence that both boys were crying and that is in the context of both returning to a Choir practice that was held on both the 15th and 22nd in the adjoining building. Yet no-one noticed that two 13 yr old boys had been missing and then entered the room late and had crying eyes from a couple of minutes earlier! That’s just not credible. Where is the police work on this?
In my view, Louise Milligan and all the other rats such as David Marr, Melissa Davey, Lucie Morris-Marr, Tim Minchin, Kate Miller-Heidke, Amanda Meade and the ABC as an institution along with Vitoria Police and their ‘SANO’ that have tweaked and obfuscated as required to present this hysteric fantasy as real are going to be collateral damage once the High Court deals with the lack of opportunity -that is demonstrably not because of all the improbabilities mounting one upon the other but- by the room not being empty at the relevant time. The procession-ists had to put the things they were carrying down. They could not stop until they got there and if it was still locked then they had to wait but Pell could not have been inside raping 2 kids. At any rate, it is agreed NOW that it was not locked! Blocked indeed!
This is simply not justice beyond any reasonable doubt. See ‘The Stunt’ for the basic plot of how the prosecution managed to luck in and pull this off! The defense team had thought that they had won because there was no opportunity for the offending. ‘The Stunt’ shows what it was that fooled the Jury and the majority in the supreme court. The High Court will not fall for this.
One of the saddest parts of this legal scandal besides an innocent man being in jail for 14 months is that R’s parents bought into the explanation of why their son went off the rails. They did not realize that in doing so they had made a terrible assessment of their son and now effectively think of him as a liar, for telling his mother he was never molested in any way; and a fool for not getting the compensation payout from the Catholic Church that they had been paying out to victims for years; and saddest of all they also thought him nothing much better than a coward for not protecting any other 13-year-olds that Pell could have been raping for all those 20 years. Their son, of course, was none of these things! He may have been a user of heroin and that cost him his life but he was not involved in any scam to fit up an innocent catholic cardinal that as he had effectively said had done him no harm at all.
Mandatory reporting is a social standard. People who dont report child sexual abuse if they become aware of it should face jail as I would if a patient of mine said s/he molested children and I didnt report it to the relevant authorities.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-18/catholic-church-mandatory-reporting-child-abuse/11876130
So the day has arrived and thanks to our current pandemic social distancing laws Pell will be spared the crush of the idiotic MSM reporters and the anti Pell ‘demonstrators’. That is a small mercy!
The High Court however are a scandal in and of themselves! Fancy announcing when you are going to tweet the decision instead of just immediately releasing a man who is wrongfully in prison! As I write this Pell is still in jail and yet the decision is already made! Oh well Pell will forgive them! Others might (wrongfully) think that would indicate they intend to leave him there. No 7-0!
I can see it now ‘Breaking News…’ ABC reporters breathless and sneering that ‘Cardinal George Pell has been acquitted!’ Who will be on the Drum? Will it be David Marr? They will have to have a Pell supporter, possibly Brennan. We will soon find out.
I can’t get the smile off my face! Might have to turn on both the ABC radio and TV just to soak up the VIBE! Ah schadenfreude….
Theres a swing….. and youve hit it out the park well done
7-0 as you predicted
https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6147682873001 Time to fight back!
https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6147672999001 re J mental state.
I thought this was good https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6149520755001
The Bolter has had some fun this last week!
BTW Steve are you now satisfied that J has had mental issues? If so and given your vast experience of the issue how come I could spot it all the way back to Milligan’s book and yet…
I think Pell’s interview showed as he brushed past all the tiresome rubbish about the stupidity of this case and started talking about the corruption in the Vatican, him as a very interesting man that was taken away from a very important job to be lynched by ABC and other media imbeciles police Andrews and 2 stupid judges.
Example of how stupid those 2 were. J was a soprano up the front of the column in the processions so every time he came into the church on an internal procession he had to marry up with the altar servers who were already waiting outside the sacristy with all the rest hanging round in his view to his left as he filed past! Yet the fact that he identified this room as something to do with Pell was considered by these 2 fools as supporting evidence ‘how could he have known unless he had been etc…’ what are these 2 doing in the roll of Chief Justice and President of the Supreme Court of Victoria?
Andrews is nothing less than a danger to democracy. Consider that pack of baying hounds at the top of this comment they are bonkers!
Patrick you are correct that this case should never have seen the light of day but it did and it went through the process. It just adds to the mess that is the Victorian police. However I have no issues with the police advertising that they are interested in following up on historic sexual abuse matters if only to correct as Cardinal Pell stated that the pendulum was way too much in favour of perpetrators. Also I think that the changes to Victorian law re the abandonment of judge only trials and the acceptance that both accuser and defendants testimony be regarded as equal are problematic. I never thought that a person should be sent to prison on the say so of one other person. The adversarial nature of the trial is problematic as the defense called no witnesses on the basis that they are there just to defend not to help. Think how much easier this would have been if the defense had called the multiple con celebrant priests but no at the last moment they tried to introduce the pac man video which was ruled out of order. I think that the court of appeal should only operate on a unanimous basis, that one judge thought that there was reasonable doubt seems sufficient to me to suggest that there is reasonable doubt.
As to the complainants mental state I have no real idea Ive not seen anything other than Milligan stating that he has PTSD eyes. Ive met many people with a PTSD diagnosis but never paid particular attention to their eyes.
The ABC got the pell story totally wrong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFdjx93zHU4 ‘Revealing how they respond!’
Now he is dead they can kick a dead horse with no consequence but the madness is astounding!
good comments from Abbott and Credlin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-uNJYvp_oY He was first to protect…he did not fail to protect!
and for the sake of balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuGjcCByVyc